Does the Bible provide an adequate answer for the problem of suffering ?
On April 15, 2010, at Ohio State University, a debate on the topic between Dr. Brown and Dr. Ehrman took place. Dr. Brown is an Old Testament Scholar and a Messianic Jewish apologist. He has a PhD in Near Eastern languages from New York University . He is the author of 20 books. His books include the highly acclaimed 5 volume series answering Jewish objections to Jesus. He is also an adjunct professor at four leading seminaries.
Dr. Ehrman is the author of more than 20 books. His books include two New York Times best sellers: "Misquoting Jesus" and "God's Problem: How the Bible fails to explain our most important question - Why we Suffer?" He is a professor at North Carolina.
Opening Round - This section includes notes on the opening round where each debater took 20 minutes to setup their case.
Round 2 - This section includes notes on the 10 minute rebuttal from each debater.
Round 3 - Questions from each debater to the other debater
Round 4 - Questions from the audience.
Round 5 - Closing.
Opening Round
20 minute start for each debater:
First - - Dr. Brown -
The authors of the Bible themselves provide some of the best challenges against God ! Job paints God as wicked at times and one who turns his eyes from sufferers. However, the Bible does provide an adequate answer to the problem of suffering. In effect, remove God and all is lost, there is no solution to the problem - - and if you remove God, you don't have a problem with suffering - - it's just survival of the fittest. But, if you believe that there's purpose, and meaning and morality to life then you recognize that suffereing and evil are a problem.
The Bible tells us what we need to know - - not what we want to know- - it doesn't answer why there's so much evil and suffering - - it does say we should protest that something is wrong- - we were designed for life - - not for suffering and death.. That's why we're so repulsed when suffering and death comes into the world.. We are living in a world that is fallen and broken , and at the same time, blessed. So, we live in a world that has tsunamis - and sunshine- - a world of contradictions - - a world created in the image of God and yet fallen..... Therefore, the human race is capable of incredible good and incredible wickedness - - and sometimes we see that in our own heart....
Love requires freedom - - Our choice to love God is made out of freedom - we are not coerced into loving God - - but with that choice - we have an equal choice to reject God. The choice to reject God has caused disastrous consequences in this world - - CS Lewis said. try to exclude the possibility of suffering and you have excluded life itself- free will, though it makes evil possible, it's the only thing that makes possible any love worth having."
But - we live in a transition period- - God's kingdom is not totally here and His perfect will is not being fully carried out.....During this transition age there is much evil and suffering. This transition period is only the beginning - - and God is at work during this transition period - - He can take the evil things that people do in this world and turn them into a greater good - - (consider the tragic event that put Joni EarecksonTada in a wheelchair and what God has done through her life to bring many to Him). If there's no world to come than suffering has no meaning! Life is purposeless without a world to come - - if there is a world to come, our life is chapters in a great big book - - that has meaning! Good will drive out evil - Love will drive out hate....
1. There can be a redemptive side to suffering - God can bring good out of evil - - The story of Joseph is appropriate. Alexander Soltzenitsyn sais "thank you, prison, for being in my life". It doesn't happen in the case of every tragedy - - but if you beleive, the Bible promises that in all things, God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to his purpose- - this is a promise that will take place in this world or the next! We can grow through suffering - - Suffering can build character and compassion- -
2. Sometimes our sin causes our suffering - we cant blame God for the mess we put ourselves in!
3. God is hurt by tragedy and suffering- He cares deeply and is suffering with us...."God permits what he hates, to achieve what he loves" - Joni Eareckson Tada. There is purpose and meaning to life - - take God out of the equation - - and there is no purpose..... Remember- He sent Jesus to die for our sins - - God loves us and He takes suffering so seriously that He was willing to take it on Himself at the cross.. Therefore, He didn't cause it - - because He solved it at the cross!
4. The lesson of Job- a - Sometimes, inexplicable tragedy happens. b- There's alot we dont know - - We can't tell God how to run his universe! c-when the sufferer has a personal encounter with God, there are no more questions. Corrie Ten Boom said, "Now I know from experience that Jesus' light is stronger than the deepest darkness. There is no pit so deep that God is not deeper still."
Second - - Dr. Ehrman -
He was a committed Christian in high school, went to Moody Bible Institute for College, then to Wheaton College, then to Princeton Theological Seminary to study for the ministry. Then he taught at Rutgers University to teach on the topic of suffering. He found that biblical authors conflicted on the subject of suffering.
To list a few of the explanations for suffering in the Bible that are not satisfacory:
Amos chapter 3 speaks of why the Jews will suffer a military defeat - - and that is, that God will punish them for not observing His will and doing His ways...Amos 3 v10 - - “They do not know how to do right,” declares the LORD, “who store up in their fortresses what they have plundered and looted.” 11 Therefore, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: “An enemy will overrun your land, pull down your strongholds and plunder your fortresses ."
Why is this? Becasue God was not worshipped properly....
Consider Amos Ch.4 - Israel Has Not Returned to God 1 Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, “Bring us some drinks!” 2 The Sovereign LORD has sworn by his holiness: “The time will surely come when you will be taken away with hooks, the last of you with fishhooks. 3 You will each go straight out through breaches in the wall, and you will be cast out toward Harmon,” declares the LORD. 4 “Go to Bethel and sin; go to Gilgal and sin yet more. Bring your sacrifices every morning, your tithes every three years. 5 Burn leavened bread as a thank offering and brag about your freewill offerings— boast about them, you Israelites, for this is what you love to do,” declares the Sovereign LORD. 6 “I gave you empty stomachs in every city and lack of bread in every town, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. 7 “I also withheld rain from you when the harvest was still three months away. I sent rain on one town, but withheld it from another. One field had rain; another had none and dried up. 8 People staggered from town to town for water but did not get enough to drink, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. 9 “Many times, I struck your gardens and vineyards, destroying them with blight and mildew. Locusts devoured your fig and olive trees, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. 10 “I sent plagues among you as I did to Egypt. I killed your young men with the sword, along with your captured horses. I filled your nostrils with the stench of your camps, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. 11 “I overthrew some of you as I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. 12 “Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel, and because I will do this to you, Israel, prepare to meet your God.” 13 He who forms the mountains, who creates the wind, and who reveals his thoughts to mankind, who turns dawn to darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD God Almighty is his name.
So - God caused the suffering - - God brings the suffering..... and this is the message of all the prophets .. pick any book of the bible - - God causes the suffering - he punishes them for their sins....... did he cause the earthqauke in haiti and kill 300,000 of them becasue he was angry with them???? Is that ok? Did he leave 100 million haitans homeless - - because he was angry?
There are other solutions for suffering - consider the book of Job- - Ehrman believes that Job is a book with 2 different authors -- one who wrote the beginning (Ch 1-2)and end -- and one who wrote the middle part. Under God's instruction - satan takes away everything - - including killing Job's 10 children....In the end, Job is restored - and gets alot back- - and also gets 10 children back - 10 new children - - Ehrman finds this as the most offensive verse in the Bible- - he relates it to the innocent suffering of Jews in WWII --as if its ok to kill 6 million Jews in WWII and have 6 million more born in the next gemeration is ok - -
So- God allows suffering to Job to test him - - Job hasn't done anything wrong - - God just wants to test him.....To see if Job would curse him - - is that really worth the cost?
When you come to Job's friends - - they took the position that God punished you when you sin - - this is the same position as all the prophets in the Old Testament....Job doesnt know why this is happening to him, so Job asks to plead his case before God.....Job knows God is the Almighty - - but God doesn't let Job plead his case - - Ehrman says - - "God overwhelms Job with His almightiness"... God comes back with 77 questions to Job - but Job is an innocent man who just wants to know why he's suffering! Then God tells Jobto repent in dust and ashes - and Ehram asks - "repent of what? - Job didn't do anything!"
Job didn't do anything ! In effect, God is saying - "you have no reason to ask why this is happening"
It's true that some people cause others to suffer - - no question....that's a reason for suffering but it's not the total answer - - here's 4 reasons why.....
1. God sometimes intervenes in order that no suffering takes place - why doesn't He do it more/all the time? If I ask - will I be squashed like Job was?
2. Can free will explain why there is a tsunami tha kills 300,000? earthqaukes that kill? Sure - free will is a reason that some men choose evil to others - - but it doesn't explain natural disasters that kill people.
3. In Daniel and Revelation, the Bible provides other answers for suffering- - that God is not causing the problem -- it's not people either - - but there is evil in the world and God will, eventually, overthrow these evil forces and setup his kingdom on earth...... Revelation, in fact, says to "hold on for a little while longer" and God will intervene..... In Mark, it says "some of the apostles standing there won't taste death until the kingdom of Christ will come into power"....... But it never happens - - is this a valid hope?
4. what about cancer, wars, suicide, birth defects, failed marriages, poverty, starvation, genocide in Cambodia, Bosnia, Darfur, Rawanda, and in 1918, the flu that killed 30 million Americans! The Bible is all about God intervening- in the Old Testament, God intervened and saved his people from slavery in Egypt, in the New Testament, Jesus intervens to save his people from their sins.
The Bible is all about God intervening- - If God intervenes - - why doesn't He?
Why do we live in a world where a child, every 5 seconds, dies of starvation?Every minute, 25 people die from diseases related to unclean water!Every hour, 300 people die of malaria!We have the holocaust, genocide, starvation, poverty, terrorist attacks, tsunamis,hurricanes, earthqaukesThese questions are the reason Ehrman left the Christian faith.......Ehrman believes that leaving the Christian faith does not leave a person hopeless..
Round 2
Debaters have 10 minutes for a rebuttal.
First - - Dr. Brown -
God has intervened in many lives ! There are testaments all over the world on this point......People all over the world are turning to the Scriptures for answers! To say that God doesn't intervene is not true !
Victor Frankl, an Auschwitz survivor said, "Among those who went through the experience of Auschwitz, the number whose religious life was deepend as a result, or in spite of, the experience, far exceeds those who gave up their belief in God."
Brown said,"I find it personally offensive that God's answers must be acceptable to us, lofty, holy humanity." Most starvation is caused by the fact that we are not caring for starving people..... the excess food in the US could feed 80 million people a day..... And what about the structures of Haiti's buildings - - why were they allowed to build such feeble structures? Where are the building codes?
Suffering happened in Israel for the mere fact that Israel sinned! There were high consequences of being a unique nation living in a theocracy under God's strict rules!
On the Book of Job- Brown argues that the book must be read in its entirety and it doesn't make sense to do otherwise -- the world's foremost scholar on the Book of Job argues that the entire book must be read together.....And- it wasnt fair what happened to Job - - however, thousands/millions have found solace in the Book of Job - - but it makes clear that satan causes evil things. And Job got back double of everything but the same number of children, because children are not like all other posessions and some scholars believe it is a refence to the world to come. And today - - if Job could speak, he would say it was worth it for the millions of people it has helped.....
What was Job's repsonse? - - - Job 42 - 1 Then Job replied to the LORD: 2 “I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted. 3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. 4 “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.’ 5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. 6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.”
The point is - - Job is not responding like Ehram responded ! Job has a different view of God!
Can free will explain natural disasters? Yes it can! How can you say human sin is responsible for earthquakes when they occurred before humans were even on the planet?
You want some statistics?
25 violent crimes are committed every 10 seconds
A rape is reported every 6 minutes (note that most rapes are not reported)
43 people are murdered every day
15 of 100 Americans have either been molested or are a child molester
What if God asked us:?
Thousands of children die of preventable diseases in our world that we have the means but not the will to stop - why not?
Millions die of starvation and many are killing themselves with gluttony - why?
A few of us have more individual wealth than whole countries- why is this?
There are more people in slavery now than the pre abolition slave trade - how do we allow this?
How about refugees that are the result of wars based on selfishness and deisre for power - some of these leaders even say they believe in God! How can this be?
Ultimately - who will it be that will be working on behalf of the people in haiti? The great majority will be people of faith! And the fact is, a majority of hatians are turning to faith in God as opposed to cursing of God! How peverse is it that I lost faith over something that happened to another person when it drove that person to faith in God!
Second - - Dr. Ehrman -
I find it obscene that Job was given 10 children back - - what about the first 10 children?........ Also, "how do I get from Job to the holocasut" - -"by innocent suffering"...."People who don't deserve to suffer -- they suffer......"
The Old Testament prophets taught that the righteous people were rewarded by God and the unrighteous people were being punished by God.... I disagree that the Bible gives a consistent or harmonious response to suffering."
Is this the teaching of the Bible?
Proverbs 10:3- 3 The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.
Proverbs 12:21 - 21 No harm overtakes the righteous, but the wicked have their fill of trouble.
Proverbs 13:21 - 21 Trouble pursues the sinner, but the righteous are rewarded with good things.
Or Is this the teaching of the Bible?
Eccles 7:15 - 15 In this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of these: the righteous perishing in their righteousness, and the wicked living long in their wickedness
Eccles 8:14 - 14 There is something else meaningless that occurs on earth: the righteous who get what the wicked deserve, and the wicked who get what the righteous deserve. This too, I say, is meaningless
Ehrman's conclusion is that different parts of the bible teaches different things! In his opinion, the Bible isn't consistent on its teaching on suffering or "in fact, no subject is consistent in the Bible". "The Bible is a collection of books written by a group of authors, living at diferent times, writing at different places, using different languages with different messages. It is not a unified whole."
The prophets insist that the children of God are suffering because God is punishing them......Ehrman said "I don't beleive God punishes people because of their sins." If they are punished for their sins, are their worse sinners in the audience tonight or in haiti?
Is it ,that at a point in time -- all will be made right? Well, that is not a teaching that is held throughout the Bible! In parts of the Bible it is taught quite clearly that there is no afterlife at all.....
Job 14:11-12 - 11 As the water of a lake dries up or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, 12 so he lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, people will not awake or be roused from their sleep
For most of the Hebrew writers of the Bible - when you die, you go to Sheol - - "with everyone else - righteous and wicked together."
Even Jesus spoke of the afterlife - - but it didn't agree with the Proverbs teaching - that the rightoeus would be treated fairly here - - because Ecclesiastes proved that didn't happen - - so "they changed it again" - - but according to Ehrman- even Jesus had it wrong - since the following 2 statements turned out tobe not true:
Mark 9:1 - 1 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
Mark :30-31 -30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
But then it got to this point - this world is such a cesspool of suffering - - that the early Christians thought that all would be made right at the end of time....So, now the Christians claim - - - your body dies and your soul goes to heaven or hell - - this is not a teaching of the Bible......
Most starvation in the world happens because of us? Ehrman agrees with this... But that doesn't get God off the hook... People have been starving as long as there have been people- and it always hasn't been people's fault.....Sometimes its political reasons, sometimes its drought, famine or the livestock dies.... This is God's fault because He is sovereign over this world. "Is he sovereign? ThenHe is responsible!"
Ehrman disagrees that Job would say it was worth it - - lose 10 children to pass a test? No Way....
Ehrman disagrees if you remove God from the equation all hope would be lost....."I find this personally offensive" he says.... Ehrman says "because I dont believe in God - - I don't have hope or meaning - - Well, how does you know that I dont have hope or meaning?"
Round Three
Questions from the debaters to each other.
Dr. Ehrman asks this question- How are these verses on suffering "hamonoius"?
Proverbs 10:3 - 3 The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.
Proverbs 12:21 - 21 No harm overtakes the righteous, but the wicked have their fill of trouble.
Ecclesiastes 7:15 - 15 In this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of these: the righteous perishing in their righteousness, and the wicked living long in their wickedness.
Ecclesiastes 8:14 - 14 There is something else meaningless that occurs on earth: the righteous who get what the wicked deserve, and the wicked who get what the righteous deserve. This too, I say, is meaningless.
Dr. Brown's response - I look at all the Books of the Bible as a symphony where the compilers of the Bible felt it necessary to have all the voices from all of the Books. The Book of Proverbs is giving general principles of wisdom - - that's one voice. So, you will find that the genral principles laid out are true - - - generally speaking, for example, those that follow the guidelines of biblical morality, will generally live longer lives....These are universal principles - - and it looks like from these passages in Proverbs - - that nothing then ever goes wrong- - but there are then other voices that are raised. In looking at Ecclesiastes, it's mindboggling that you leave out the conclusion to the entire book and all the questions raised in the Book:
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 - 13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.
Dr. Ehrman's follow-up - So when the Bible says this - - (Proverbs 10:3 - 3 The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked), are you saying the Bible is wrong?
Dr. Brown's response - No - - I'm saying if we follow God's ways we will see protection and deliverance, and sometimes things inexplicably happen and we have other voices for these happenings in Scripture.
Dr. Brown's question - What answer do you give to those suffering awful tragedies if there is no God?
Dr. Ehrman's response - Do what Job's friends did when they first met Job - they sat in silence with him for days. They did not say God is testing you or punishing you or there's a greater reason why you lost your children, Job. They didn't give easy answers or say, "just trust God". You suffer with them.....If you can help alleviate the suffering, do that, but the last thing you should do is give then an easy answer..
Dr. Brown's followup - But I could tell the person who has terminal cancer that there is hope of being with God forever... I could tell the lady who lost her child that one day she can be with her child forever and ever.....
Dr. Ehrman cut Dr. Brown off - - and then stated - so you give people cheap hope.......
Dr. Brown responded- you call it cheap hope and I call it God and reality! (the audience applauded)
Dr. Ehrman - - my father was dying of cancer and an evangelical anointed him with oil and prayed over him for healing and said he would be healed - - it made my father miserable
Dr. Brown responded- there is a possibility of healing but not a promise - - and your mom didn't lose her faith becasue she knew she would one day be with your father forever in heaven. "It's anything but cheap, my friend" (applause from the audience)
Dr. Ehrman - I'd like to talk about this passage of Amos below :- - did God do this and does He still punish people for their sins by starving them or by bringing epidemics or military slaughter?
Consider Amos Ch.4 - Israel Has Not Returned to God 1 Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, “Bring us some drinks!” 2 The Sovereign LORD has sworn by his holiness: “The time will surely come when you will be taken away with hooks, the last of you with fishhooks. 3 You will each go straight out through breaches in the wall, and you will be cast out toward Harmon,” declares the LORD. 4 “Go to Bethel and sin; go to Gilgal and sin yet more. Bring your sacrifices every morning, your tithes every three years. 5 Burn leavened bread as a thank offering and brag about your freewill offerings— boast about them, you Israelites, for this is what you love to do,” declares the Sovereign LORD. 6 “I gave you empty stomachs in every city and lack of bread in every town, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. 7 “I also withheld rain from you when the harvest was still three months away. I sent rain on one town, but withheld it from another. One field had rain; another had none and dried up. 8 People staggered from town to town for water but did not get enough to drink, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. 9 “Many times, I struck your gardens and vineyards, destroying them with blight and mildew. Locusts devoured your fig and olive trees, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. 10 “I sent plagues among you as I did to Egypt. I killed your young men with the sword, along with your captured horses. I filled your nostrils with the stench of your camps, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. 11 “I overthrew some of you as I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. 12 “Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel, and because I will do this to you, Israel, prepare to meet your God.” 13 He who forms the mountains, who creates the wind, and who reveals his thoughts to mankind, who turns dawn to darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD God Almighty is his name.
Dr. Brown responded- God did those things as a consequence of sin, to a chosen nation. God did it to turn his people back to Him. God brings judgment - He is just....To the second question, all punishment is not wrong - - otherwise, there would be chaos. There is a principal of "you reap what you sow"....Job tells me not to judge the sufferer and not to judge God's repsonse -- when I see suffering today, I go to Luke 13 and say - "were these people any more guilty than we are?"
Dr. Ehrman - I agree there should be punishment- - but if my kids do wrong - I don't starve them and kill them...but this is what Amos said God did....
Dr. Brown -God didn't do the things in Amos because his people didn't go to bed on time or not brush their teeth.....God's talking about murder, shedding of innocent blood and massive injustice - - so God responded and justice from God did come....
Dr. Brown's question - In your book you say we need to change ourselves for the better. Do you think humans can change from past patterns of behavior without divine help? What is your answer for why there is evil?
Dr. Ehrman's response - If wicked pople can only become good thru God changing them - then why doesn't God change more wicked people? Why didn't God change Hitler? It's narrow-minded to beleive that only those who folow your theological view can be turned to good. We need more people to do more good in this world. God is not the answer to evil in the world, we are the answer.
Dr. Brown's response - It is those of the Christian faith who are doing the extra and making the sacrifices.
Dr. Ehrman's final question Let's talk about the Final Judgment in Revelation - where a single Book of Lifeis opened up. Everyone's name who is not in the BookofLife is thrown into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 14 says this is an eternal punishment inburning sulfur - etermally,foreer - andnot for billions of years, but billions of years is the beginning...... And this is God's answer to suffering...... Do you beleive that God is going to throw these people into the Lake of Fire? Do you think it's fair - - thatpeoplearepunished for trillions of years based onwhat they did for say, 20 of years...Can you imagine some greater suffering than this? Do you think that it's odd that God is doing it?
Dr. Brown's response - Revealtion 7 says that the number (in the Bookof Life) is a "multitude no one can number" - so, God's mercy is far more than we could dream about.... There will be a Final Judgment but on thenature of it, Dr. Brown will not draw it from apocolyptic imagery - but will address it from the whole of the New Testament witness. The great theme that he sees as far as punishment is the forfeiture of life and the forfeitue of being with God forever. ... and God will be just in doing that....
Dr. Brown's question - Our graduates are serving the poorest of the poor and serving sacrificially - - what is the impact of your teaching on your grads?
Dr. Ehrman's response - - I give away an enormous amont of money - but my concerns are not your concerns....that is christian ministry....My main interest is hunger and homelessness. But how much is enough to give away?
Round Four
Questions from the audience.
Question to Dr. Brown - Are you saying that the answer to suffering is incomplete?
Response - - Dr. Brown -No - the Bible's answer is complete - - but part of the answer will never be fully realized in this part of the world. Part of the answer is in the world to come.....We don't have all the knowledge this side of eternity......
Question to Dr. Ehrrman - Since the definition of "good" and "evil" don't exist outside of Theism - doesn't this negate the exceptions you bring up?
Response - - Dr. Ehrman -I don't agree with the premise.....Good and evil are well outside the discourse of Theism......I have a firm idea of good and evil and don't believe in God.....My basic premise is anything that works well for another human being is good......anything that harms another human being is evil.......
Question to Dr. Brown - If free will is the answer to suffering then why does Scirpture say God causes suffering whether because of sin or to test humans?
Response - - Dr. Brown -God doesn't cause suffering to test human beings - - look at Jesus, the picture of God - - he constantly works to alleviate suffering - We suffer because we live in a world of sin...
Question to both - How does one become righteous?
Response - - Dr. Ehrman -righteousness and wickedness has to do with how we relate to one another.....
Response - - Dr. Brown -if you get away from the Scriptural standard you have subjectivisim......There are dictators that thought they would help their countries and they caused horrific suffering.....Standards are laid out in Scripture and that's the bar......
Question to Dr. Brown - If we were intelligently designed, why all the diseases?
Response - - Dr. Brown -we are a fallen race.....Choices that have been made have affected the whole world - - the choice of Adam bought sin into the world.....Human sin has affected everything......
Question to Dr. Ehrman - Is the Bible essentially true?
Response - - Dr. Ehrman -the Bible has different books that have different points of view - - some are more acceptable than other points of view.....I don't believe that "the righteous never go hungry"; I don't believe God killed people in Amos' day.... I don't think the Bible can be taken as a unit - - this si the problem I have with Michael's position - - he picks and chooses which views he wants to support because there are differing views in the Bible....He talks about morality - but he uses the New Testament and not the Old - - where if you "disobey your parents you will be stoned to death."
Question to Dr. Brown - Are natural disasters not suffering from God?
Response - - Dr. Brown -The Bible does not attribute all natural disasters to God......It's possible that some natural disasters are the direct result of human sin - - but I don't have the right to say that.....Jesus said regarding the tower that fell on people - - "were they any more sinful than someone else?" Romans 8 says that all of creation is groaning - - Romans 5 says death is the result for humans because of human sin - God made a perfect world - sin spoiled it - and in the world to come, sin will be eradicated....
Question to Dr. Ehrman - You say some are righteous, some are not; Romans 3 say none is righteous - can you explain?
Response - - Dr. Ehrman -I don't agree with the passage.
Question to Dr. Brown - Can you name an action that is moral and right that a Believer can perform that a non-Believer cannot?
Response - - Dr. Brown -this is the famous Christopher Hitchens question - the answer is many things - - one is - - I was on my knees praying for you to come to the Lord last night - something I'm certain you were not doing for me....
Response - - Dr. Ehrman -No - I hope desperately that you come and see the truth - - and I hope that someday you will....
Question to Both - Since God has evil characteristics - like killing people - can God and the devil be the same?
Response - - Dr. Ehrman - some older faiths believe that - - but the devil is a late comer - - He shows up after the Hebrew Bible period....Some explain suffering by saying that God is evil..... He burns people for trillions of years, he kills people - doesn't sound like some things a good person would do ...... But I don't believe that God or the Devil exist......
Response - - Dr. Brown - In Scripture, satan is a murderer - God puts to death righteously....What God does is just.....
Question to Dr. Brown - In a progressive revelation theology, why does God leave the answer to suffering to later?
Response - - Dr. Brown -Suffering is early in Scripture - in Genesis - man is created, he sins, God is grieved - that's a paradox - because God knew what was coming, yet He was grieved.....the entire Word provides answers to suffering...
Question to Dr. Ehrman - if there is no God, isn't there no objective moral standard?
Response - - Dr. Ehrman -there are millions of people who believe in God that have different moralities....So where is the morality based on God?.....The morality of God in Joshua chapter 6 was that the army of Joshua destroy all men, women, children and animals of Jehrico......God told them to do that - - - to slaughter the children! So - it's hard for me to believe if you have God you have morality....and if you don't have God you have immorality- - I just don't believe that....God is not the answer - - there are plenty of immoral and unethical people that have God - - and plenty of moral and ethical people that do not.....
Question to Both - Perhaps Christianity is not true but is a valuable balm for some?
Response - - Dr. Ehrman -Yes - if hope in their faith helps them be a better person, that's good.....There's empirical evidence that faith has helped people....I don't think it's based on truth - but good for them.....
Response - - Dr. Brown -People can find solace in varying faiths - - and even other "non faith" things- - However, the Bible is the truth and culminates in Jesus - and I would rather not believe than believe a lie....I would rather not find solace in a myth....I've gone to India for 16 years and I've seen the Gospel transform the lives of people of other faiths....
Round 5
Closing arguments
First - - Dr. Ehrman - In the Bible, there are different explanations for suffering - - and some of them contradict each other.
1. Is it because God is punishing them for their sins - that's what the Hebrew Bible maintains. I refuse to believe that birth defects, alzheimers, all the other diseases were given by God to teach them a lesson!
2. Other Books of the Bible, including the Prophets, maintain that suffering is caused by those who have free will to inflict this suffering on others - and that is true. But why would God allow humans to cause evil in some instances and not others? If He can do miracles for people throughout the Bible, where is He today?
3. Some authors of the Bible believe that suffering was ultimately redemptive - - and its true that there can often be a silver lining in the hardships we encounter. But I don't see anything redemptive when Ethiopian babies die of malnutrition.
4. Some authors see suffering as a test of faith - But I don't believe God would kill Job's 10 children to see if Job would curse Him or not! If someone killed your 10 children, wouldn't you have the right to curse Him? And to think God would give him 10 more children afterwards is obscene.
5. Some authors maintain that suffering is a mystery (like the poetry in Job). Why do we have no right to ask about the mystery- since we are peons and God is the Almighty? And we have no right to call Him to task for what He has done? If God made us then our sense of right and wrong came from Him, and there's no other sense of right and wrong but his - and if He's done something wrong- he' culpable! And murdering babies, starving masses and committing genocide is wrong!
6. I do have a biblical view on suffering that is in Ecclesiastes - - there's alot we can't know about the world.....Alot of bad things happen-alot of good things happen - the solution is to enjoy life while we can because it's fleeting....We need to enjoy as much as we can as long as we can! The fact that this life is all there is - - should not make us despondent but should give us joy! Joy of living in the moment and trying to make the world a better place....for ourselves and others in it....To live life to the fullest means doing more.....there doesn't have to be world poverty - the wealth could be redistributed....We should love and be loved.....Just because we don't have an answer to suffering doesn't mean we can't have a response to it....we should work hard to alleviate suffering and to live as well as we can...
Last - - Dr. Brown - You judge a tree by it's fruit - - As sincere as Dr. Ehrman is- - I don't think his approach will generate the sacrifice needed to solve the problem of suffering. Bart's book says to grill steaks, eat great desserts, open a bottle of wine - - the greatest sufferers in this world have never had a dessert!!! How does that offer hope??????We live in a narcissistic society - we don't need more of it ! Read the whole of the Book of Ecclesiastes- - it says the things that Bart says - - but what is the conclusion? - It says, remember your creator in the days of your youth - and you can summarize the last chapter by saying "living without God is not worth living life at all". The Bible encourages us to ask why !! You lose God - - you lose His intervention going on in the world today (maybe not as much as we'd like), you take away His comfort, His redemptive work and the world to come - - and you offer me bordeaux and unhealthy desserts! NO THANKS- I'll stay with God and His reality and comforts and promises!
