Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People?
Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People: Differing theological viewpoints - Dr. Norman Geisler vs Rabbi Harold Kushner (best selling author of "When Bad Good Things Happen to Good People")
An excellent video debate between a Christian theologian and an accomplished Rabbi. Kushner argues that God could not be "all powerful", because if God was, He would solve suffering - - Kushner argues, God would love to solve suffering , but is not able to. On the other hand, Geisler argues that God is all powerful, all loving, all good and - - evil and suffering still exist. This is a wonderful debate.
Comments on Debate between Dr. Geisler vs Rabbi Kushner - Part 1
Points
1. Is God all powerful?
God is all powerful, but Kushner argues against this, because if He is all powerful, why would God allow suffering? Kushner cannot reconcile these 2 issues, especially since his son passed away at 14 yrs old to terrible suffering.
Geisler argues - God controls and is sovereign over the entire universe.
While He permits suffering He does not promote it.
Like Job says "When He has tried me, I will come forth as gold."
God has a purifying purpose to "make us better men" by having gone through the suffering. Sometimes our sin causes the suffering, sometimes its permitted into our lives - - either way, God has a purpose as defined in Romans 8:28:
Romans 8:28 - 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Kushner argues - would God pervert one life, so that another could go through a growth experience? How could we hold God responsible for this? He argues that God is not all powerful to control it......
Geisler responds - - Evil is permitted in this world - - We have a loving God, who gave man free will to accept or reject God - - and man chose to reject God - - and a consequence is sin, death, sickness and death entered the world.....and God looks down on the world in the context of that free will and brings men to a greater good thru suffering....
Kushner responds - - man has free will to choose - - and when they choose evil - - can God stop them if he chooses?
Geisler responds that God can and does supernaturally intervene - - we see it in the Old and New Testaments in the life of the prophets and of course, in Christ's life...He has proven He is the Messiah...But what provides the most hope is that God has involved Himself in the world personally, He has taken on the suffering in the world through his Son Jesus, and He has promised a final triumph over this in His Word.
2. Do we have authoritative support for God's will and his nature?
Kushner says yes on the will but not on His nature - - - that God makes clear his will - how He wants us to live - - but doesn't tell us who He is...
Geisler says both - - He's referred to as Almighty over 48 times in Old Testament Scripture - proving He is all powerful.... In addition, if you do know the will of someone, you have to know something about their nature.......
3. If God did create everything, did he then create evil?
St. Augustine said - - if God created everything - - and evil is something - - - therefore God created evil -- is to miss the real nature of evil - - - evil is a lack - - - - like rust to a car and rot to a tree - - it is a parasite that exists only in something else.......
God created the good nature and evil is a corruption of that good nature - - so, God did not create evil and nevertheless, evil is very real.....
Kushner believes God created the opportunity for evil - - he doesn't hold God responsible for individual acts of evil - and that He created a world with the maximum good is also a world where evil is possible.....- Kushner doesn't hold God responsible for individual acts of evil because Kushner believes God has no power over evil..........(In my opinion, this is absolute blasphemy..)
Geisler - with the fact of freedom there is a possibility of evil - - the difference would be "are God's hands tied by the natural laws He made or does God transcend the natural laws He made"? If He created the natural law - - then He transcends them.......and can from time to time intervene - - to have nature more powerful than God is to make God finite and the laws He created all powerful.....
Kushner says "If God has the power to spare a life of a child who is suffering and chooses not to - - -I have to question His goodness ; If He has the power to work a miracle and chooses not to - - He is morally deficient....
Geisler - - If you say God is morally deficient, then you must have some standard by which you are judging God to be imperfect.....and if you had a perfect standard by which you judged God to be imperfect- then that standard is ultimate and that standard would become God........ C.S. Lewis, a former atheist, concluded that "I'm arguing in circles - - he said - if God is imperfect - - and I have a standard of perfection beyond God by which I am measuring Him - - therefore, the standard is ultimate - and it is God - - so, Geisler asked Kushner what is this ultimate standard that he's using to judge God imperfect? morally deficient??
Kushner believes God is morally good - - but that He is just limited in power .....so Kushner uses the term morally deficient........(my input - then how is He God?????).... But Kushner doesn't believe "perfect power" is such a big deal......Any jerk with a gun can destroy lives - - -that doesn't take power....To create life is a divine miracle - - - and He sees the perfection of God in a moral direction - - and so when bad things happen - - he's prepared to qualify God's power - - - God is the perfect good - - but is morally deficient and without power to handle all issues.....
Geisler responded - - "then I misunderstood your book which I've read a number of times" - - which said God is limited in His power and His love and God is imperfect because He is limited in his love and his power.......
Kushner said - - God is not limited in His love - - but to forgive God is to get over our anger at God that He made a less than perfect world - - perhaps God could not have created a perfect world and perhaps he loves goodness over perfection.....and he created a world where goodness would not happen unless one of us made it happen.......Sometimes we're hurt because of that decision of God's.......and that's where we have to forgive him - for leaving us vulnerable in an imperfect world... (my thoughts - - - I'm going to forgive God??? Unbelievable ........ how awful does that sound???)
Geisler - - says if God is infinite in love and that's part of His nature, how can he not be infinite in power if that is part of his nature also.................
Kushner argues that love and power are incompatible......You can't control someone and love them..........Because God is the perfection of love, He doesn't need all the power - - - He can give us part of the power - -to live out our wills....
Geisler - - says its not a question of whether God needs all the power or not - -its a question of whether he has it....
Geisler says - - you have a problem saying God is infinitely loving and not infinitely powerful when they are both parts of his nature.....and how are love and power incompatible? Just because God wills to give us freedom doesn't necessarily limit His power - - - because He freely chose to give us freedom - - - can you show a contradiction between showing God as all loving and all powerful....
Geisler says - - how can he be infinite and loving and not infinitely loving and also be infinite and powerful but not infinitely powerful - - - you cant choose one and not the other.......? Kushner called it a word game.......
Kushner says he sees God as our source for love - so He needs an inexhaustible supply of love, compassion, growth, discipline........He doesn't see power as a divine characteristic......
Ankerberg - If He doesn't have power - how can we trust Him to do anything?
Kushner - God is all powerful and has voluntarily limited His power to leave some room for us....secondarily - you can't count on God to prevent us from messing up our world - - -
Geisler takes a biblical approach - using the Old Testament that a rabbi would be familiar with - - - in Isaiah it says that God knows the end from the beginning..........when you look at Scripture you see a God who intentionally created, intentionally gave free will, where man rebelled against God and despite of that, God is working out His purposes through history to bring the greater good in the end because .... as Joseph acknowledged to his brothers in Genesis 50:20 - 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, and so - - despite our evil - God can create a greater good - -
Ankerberg - Is it important whether God is all powerful? Geisler quoted William James - - the world is better for having the devil in it, provided we have our foot on the devils neck, but the one thing we cannot be sure of, if God is limited in power, is that we have a foot on his neck....I feel much more assured if we have an all powerful God with his foot on the devils neck...
Comments on Debate between Dr. Geisler vs Rabbi Kushner - Part 2
Points
1. God has sovereign control over the world - - He is all powerful and all loving...... Kushner believes God is on our side, He loves us but He does not have the power to change things......(this is absolutely unbiblical!)
Geisler - God loves me and He has the power to fulfill that love...... He disagrees with Kushner by stating that God has the power and is sovereign over all things........
Geisler - If I didn't have a God that was all loving and all powerful there would be no reason to be assured from this love because he would be impotent to fulfill the love......
Kushner asks - so why is there all the evil?
Geisler - there's 2 aspects to that - --
1. we're free - - and we're free to choose good...... and/or to choose evil
2. this world is not the whole story - - because if it is the whole story than Kushner's right - - it is unjust....But, God is not finished with us yet - - there will be a resurrection of the dead - - - there will be a day of reckoning/reward/punishment..... The Bible says Jesus Christ brought life and immortality to light thru the Gospel........Jesus reversed the course of death, He suffered for us and brought eternal life .......
2. Kushner - the danger with taking comfort with the eternal life, is that we will not take the injustices of this world seriously.....It's unacceptable with the evil in this world.....and a focus on the eternal will not focus or be outraged on the injustices of this day
Geisler shot Kushner down once again and totally destroys Kushner's argument by stating - - - - - you can take this life seriously and believe in the eternal life....... the Day of Judgement proves that the evil in this day is serious and someone is outraged by it - - because it is punished on that Day......and that's why it has to be judged and good must be rewarded....To Geisler, the after life accentuates the reality of evil today because God hates it so much He's going to take care of it on Judgement Day - - - proving He is all powerful and able to take care of it, defeat it and assures victory over it......
3. Why is it necessary to have an after life?
The issue is whether the after-life is true or false - - not why is it necessary...... but the Scriptures state there is an afterlife - - - the OT and NT both......
There's alot of evidence in the OT for an after-life - - - Daniel 12, Ezekiel 37:38, a portion of Job, and Jesus used the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to silence the Saducees in proving there's a resurrection........
4. Is this the best of all possible worlds that we're living in?
Geisler - this is not the best possible world, but it is the best of all possible ways to get to the best of all possible worlds (Voltaire's satire - Candide)
Why ? - - - Because a true believer is like tea - - their real strength comes out of them when they get into hot water...
God permits difficulties - - to produce the greatest virtues in us - - - which even Job admitted to this in the OT - -
There's a kind of sanctifying influence of suffering that perfects us - - Romans 5 - - tribulation produces patience....
Kushner - not everyone is strengthened by difficulties - - you haven't seen this?
Geisler - it was His plan to give us freedom - - the freedom to choose whether trials and suffering will be a stumbling stone or a stepping stone - - we can be better or bitter...Just because God's purposes weren't fulfilled because we rejected His desires - - doesn't mean his purposes are bad....
Kushner - so the girl who's raped is a sinner by not following God's purposes?
Geisler - I'm not saying that at all --- - - that would be unfair - - - but she lives in a world of sin - - brought on by man - and we all suffer the consequences - - - but in spite of this - - God has taken this suffering on Himself and done something about it in the death and resurrection of Christ - - and that is the hope of the eternal life
Kushner - what do you say to the person? You're doing it wrong?
Geisler says - I love you, I feel for you, God loves you and feels for you, and God has done something about it and God can make you a better person through this - - or you can be bitter if you choose not to accept his good purpose in it - - your choice is what will be fulfilled in your life.....
Kushner - But I don't understand why a loving God would put me in this situation ?
Geisler - Join the club - - no one can understand the infinite purposes of God.....
5. If God is limited - - why should we love him - - if His love may not win out in the end - - since He's not all powerful - there must be a bigger power? Where's the assurance in the end that God will win?
Kushner - You can't be sure that God is going to win - - that's why we have to help God out ... Also, Love is the acceptance of imperfection - that imperfection is not having an all powerful God......
Ankerberg - So, we choose to follow someone who might not win? So, we define love and not God?
Kushner - you're talking about faith - -
Ankerberg - So, why believe in God? Was Hitler right?
Kushner - people do what's right because its right.......Hitler's punishment was that he never tasted what its like to be human - - that's a worse punishment than hell......
Kushner - We should follow God because He offers what we need - - God's standards of good and bad are built into the universe - as solid as the law of gravity - - in the same way that Congress cant repeal gravity - - - no one can vote that the 10 commandments are not better than the opposite...... The presence of God in us is manifested in us when we respond with compassion, when we're angry with injustice....
Geisler - the only addition is that God is all perfect and now He's not? If He's perfect, I have no problem except that he must add that God has the power to fulfill that love for me......... If he could say God is all loving and all powerful - - and he has a good purpose that he will bring about - - - in the next life - - - the injustices in this world will fade .....
Kushner - I will renounce my book when I see people no longer being killed etc.
Geisler - If someday there is a resurrection, and the just are rewarded, the evil is punished and there is a reunion with loved ones - - -you would renounce.......
Geisler - There's historical evidence of the fulfillment of OT prophecy in the life resurrection of Christ - - and that it will happen one day - - and its not a leap for me - - - and I have that hope and we'll look back at the suffering in our life and say it was worth it.........
Kushner - I'm not converting today!!!
Kushner - I want to be outraged by suffering on this earth - I don't want to focus on the eternal and the meeting on the other side - - I want to be outraged...... When well meaning people want to take that outrage from me - I protest
Geisler - I'm outraged with you - that's what makes it and evil so desperate, discouraging and awful......
Geisler - You can have your outrage and still have a purpose for it......I'm outraged at the evils of the Jewish people as slaves in Egypt - - but I still see a divine purpose thru it all - - God's purpose was clear.....
Kushner - I don't believe the suffering come upon us for any purpose - - - God give us the ability to transform and strength to redeem these tragedies...... They happens becasue of laws of nature - - - and human stupidity - - - but God gives us the stimulus to growth and stimulation
Geisler - If I do not see a purpose for it, doesn't mean God has no purpose for it......That's the ultimate act of arrogance on my part.......
Comments on Debate between Dr. Geisler vs Rabbi Kushner - Part 3
Points
Kushner - God permits evil because we couldn't have good, or moral free choice, without that - - the good deed freely chosen is the best things in God sight. Could God intervene if He wanted to? Does He choose not to intervene?
Geisler-Yes God can, and Yes God does intervene from time to time - - -but He couldn't do it all the time, then what He did would be part of the natural law - - - natural law is a regular principle - - a miracle is an irregular event - - if a miracle became regular - - it would then be natural law......So, God cannot supernaturally intervene all of the time.......And He has - - He did in Moses time, Elijah's, Prophets and Jesus and He will intervene in the end in a dramatic supernatural event and will rectify these evil things we detest so much.......God cannot be tied down by the natural law of the world He created..
Ankerberg - - why doesn't God step in every time?
Geisler - if God did this, and it would avoid the laws of nature - - - it would also avoid all moral responsibility - - so God could not do it all the time or it would thwart the moral purposes He had for the universe....
Geisler - Madeleine Murray O'Hare says "there is no God - - if if there was - why doesn't he intervene and get rid of all evil "-- well one of the ways He could do this is to stuff her mouth with cotton - - -but if He did, it would violate her dignity and freedom - - God cannot step in every time there is evil because that would destroy all freedom...
Ankerberg - is freedom worth it, then?
Kushner - Yes - that's what makes us human - - - when we exercise our freedom of choice....Go back to Genesis 3 - - Eve saw that the fruit looked good, tasted good - she becomes animalistic - -
Geisler - its a little more than this animal state - - because the tempter said to her - - "you will be a God" and "you shall know good from evil" - - -and my dog doesn't have this ability to be a God or have knowledge of good and evil - - - - - the dog doesn't have a moral compass....Its more - - its going from a state of innocence to a state of guilt....from a state of sin, and the consequences of sin - - meaning sorrow, death and the creation being subject to sin - - - and that's why we have suffering today - - that's because God put a representative of the human race here - - and he said don't abuse your gift of freedom - - and he did - - and we are suffering the consequences - and God in His love sent a redeemer for the human race to be redeemed from it....
Kushner - If Adam and Eve didn't sin - - you think they would be innocent people in the presence of God - - and I think they would be animals - - with nothing to worry about but filling our bellies and having sex - - - -the whole capacity for morality - - all of this seems from the fact that we transcended the animal life and entered a problematic life of humanity...
Geisler - if man was only an animal before the Fall, he would not have been held morally responsible for his sin......he could not have been made in the image and likeness of God as Genesis 1:27 says - - - he could not have been accountable for his actions - -so he was man before the fall - - - and he fell downward into sin - - -he did not fall upward into humanity .....
Ankerberg - so how can there be bad or good? - - if its just the natural evolution of man - - its just the evolutionary flow that's happening fro the evolutionary good...
Kushner - No - - evolution has God's fingerprints all over it - - -evolution has been a mixed bag - we've been able to help and hurt each other.....the greatness of the human soul is we are hurt by murder - - we have seen people misuse the freedom -
Geisler - there is a biological evolution - - - and moral evolution of man - - - I see no evidence of this moral evolution of man in Scripture - - man was made in the God's image before the Fall - - man was morally responsible for his sin - - and the tragedy of life ensued as a result of the Fall - - -
Ankerberg - each of you back up your statement......
Kushner - I can believe in God because I see ordinary people doing extraordinary things......like survive thru tragedy in their lives......If we are outraged by the death of a child, we are encouraged by how kids respond to tragedy......Even to how they respond on their deathbed - - - where did we get the capacity to do this if God isn't real? The guy knows he didn't have this capacity yesterday - - - and yet today, by tragedy - - the guy makes it thru and this comes out of him......The evidence of God is not in philosophy or Scripture but in man's ability to survive tragedy.....
Geisler - How can that be if God is limited in power??? How can these people be transformed in tragedy if God doesn't have the ability to overcome? - - - Kushner's God cannot do this............
Kushner - its not what % of power does God have - - I'm asking where does God manifest this power - - God doesn't manifest his power in stopping the tragedy - - but God uses His power in helping/strengthening us to overcome/transcend/survive the tragedy.....I cant be assured we'll come out OK in the end.....This is my faith - - I'm betting on God - - I'm not sure God has the power to right the ending - - - In the Hebrew bible - the confrontation is between God and human stubborness - the real enemy of God is not evil or satan - - - the real enemy of God is human unresponsiveness - - - God will win if man wants him to -- - there is no satan - - evil is caused by bad human beings - -
Kushner - every generation and with every advance -we understand the world better, the soul better and God better....the morality standards have changed - - not always progress - - scripture was spoken to an immature people - - shortly before that time they were slaves - - - so Scripture said what the people could understand - - Scripture points us to God's will - - and God's demands
Geisler - The authority for my faith is the Scriptures - - look at the Old Testament - - - David said on his deathbed - (2 Samuel 23) the Holy Spirit's word was on my tongue - - - they were God's words - - - - Zechariah 7 says the Spirit spoke thru the Prophets and God spoke to Moses hundreds of times - - - - the authoritative basis for my faith is the Bible as the Word of God - - and God cannot error - - then the Bible is the unerring Word of God - - look to that authority - - - its not human speculation - - the Bible says God is almighty, his knowledge is infinite, he created the universe, he doesn't change - - - - - this is a different concept of God - - Kushner's God is created by Kushner's reaction to something that happened in his life.....
Kushner - - its a reaction after a thorough study of the Scripture......lets not discuss the inerrancy of Scripture if so - -
Kushner - so your God supports slavery and pork chops - -
Geisler - how so?
Kushner - Exodus 21 - makes laws how to treat your slaves and Leviticus 11 on pork chops
Geisler - one of your own cleansed all meats - -
Kushner - so God changed His mind?
Geisler - No - - it's legitimate to have different rules at different times in different stages- - - when your child is a baby they eat with their hand hands - - when they get a little older they use baby utensils - - - later grown-up utensils - -
Kushner - that's my point...
Geisler - its my point - its inerrant advice at that point in their life - - - revelation is progressive - - he did have different orders for them to operate under at different times ... He changes the progressive revelation - - - some to Adam - some to Noah - - some to Abraham and some to Moses - - - we didn't make up the rules - - - we get the rules as they are provided and revealed..
Kushner - there is a divinely implanted response in us that the prohibitions like murder and adultery are permanent - - and eating leaven bread or sacrificing rams is not
Geisler - He did revoke the ceremonial laws but He did not revoke the moral law.............
Kushner - one can choose to accept the Christian filtering out the ceremonial laws...
Geisler - but if the choice was based on historical evidence - - - is it a choice?
Kushner - evidence supported by Christians only...
Geisler - there is evidence that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy.....
Comments on Debate between Dr. Geisler vs Rabbi Kushner - Part 4
Points
Ankerberg - Let's look at the Book of Job
Kushner - there are 3 thesis in the Book- -
1. God is all powerful
2. God is good
3. Job is a good man
When Job is prospering, you can support all 3 statements......When Job is sick - - you can only affirm any 2 of these 3 by denying one of the 3.....The 3 friends conclude that Job may have done something wrong to deserve what is happening...That Job committed some sin and God is opening Job's eyes to it .. because they had been taught that God is all powerful (#1) and all loving (#2) ..... Job chooses to believe #1 and #3 and deny that God is good....because God is so great He doesn't need to be limited by consideration of fairness.....Kushner argues that #2 and #3 are true and he chooses not to believe in #1...... Kushner beleives #2 has to be true because God is the fountain of morality as made clear in the whole network of biblical values...but the bible doesn't conclude God is all powerful..... So, Kushner concludes that the tragedies that happen to innocent people are not God's will - - what kind of God would want these kind of things to happen??
Ankerberg - but Job doesn't agree with that....
Kushner - Yes - Job doesn't agree with what I'm saying - - but the author of Job may be saying what I'm saying - - - God's speech from the whirlwind is the "author's answer" - - it seems to say, "I am so powerful, you have no basis for questioning me?" - - if it says this then why does Job put his hand before his mouth and apologize - - it doesn't make sense - - that's what Job was saying for 36 chapters - -that God is all powerful - - so why would Job be shocked with his hand before his mouth to conclude that the whirlwind was saying that God is all powerful?
Ankerberg - - that doesnt jive with other verses - - like Job 42:1-2 where Job is commenting on God's all powerfulness - - Job 42:1-2 - - Then Job replied to the LORD : 2 "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. Sounds like "all powerful to me".......
Geisler - I'd outline the Book of Job this way - - the first few chapters are behind the scene, the middle chapters are "on the scene" and the last few chapters are "beyond the scene".....You will never understand what's going on in Job "on the scene" unless you understand what's going on in Job "behind the scene" and then whats going to happen "beyond the scene"...........the behind the scene is a contest between God and satan -- we cannot understand evil unless we understand the origin of evil - - (Ezekial 28, Isiaih 14) - a created angel that rebels agsinst God, hates God, hates His people and wants to do evil.....The contest behind the scene prompted God to permit Job to suffer -because of satan's challenge - - - satan inflicts his evil and God permits - - -in order to allow Job to say in Job 13:15a - Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him; - - and chapter 23:10 - - But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold. and chapter 19:25 - 25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. At the end of the book, God rewards Job with twice of what he had before.....God permits evil in order to bring about a greater good - - but only if God is prompted by the evil one - - who inflicts the evil on Job - - the suffering becomes significant in light of the ultimate purpose of a sovereing God who can do anything - - and does it for good - for Job and His own glory....
Kushner - I think chapter 1-2, 42 are an ancient fable - - chapter 3-41 are a much later and sophisticated poem dialogue - - If the whole book is one book - - I have problems with a God who gets talked into a wager, even worse lets children die and then replaces them with more children?? - - I'm unsatisfied with the chapter 42 ending and so is the author of the middle chapters.....
Geisler - there is no manuscript evidence for it being 2 books - - - our oldest manuscripts supports it as 1 text - - secondly, there's good literary evidence internally that it is 1 book - - sons of God in chapter 1 and 2 and also chapter 37 - - and its alos in Genesis chapter 6 - - it shows literary consistency/continuity - - the name of God most used in the Book of Job is Almighty - - - it's used 48 times in the Old Testament and 31 of these are in the Book of Job - - which shows and proves that God is all powerful..and sovereign...
Kushner - God is not referred to as Almighty and is referred to as Shaddai - - in Hebrew - - and there's no proof that Shaddai measn Almighty except that the King James translates it that way...Chapter 1,2 and 42 call God "Elohim" and the rest of the chapters use "Adonai" - - you dont see it any different.....its 2 different books....
Geisler - The OT dictionary refers to Shaddai as Almighty...... Brown Driver and Briggs supports it....
Kushner - Shadai is a praise name of God - it doesn't necessarily mean Almighty...
Geisler - what about the sons of God, the ancient references, the pre-Mosiac patriarchial period, the landmarks - follows thru the whole Book of Job............
Kushner - I'm not saying the 2 books are independent of each other - -the "poet" of the middle chapters could be writing as if its the same period...... - - -
Geisler - Ezekial refers to Job as a historical figure - - he's not a legend......
Kushner - after chapter 2- - Job stops being patient - - its a different book - - there's disjuncture
Geilser - Consider what Job says in chapter 19 and 23 - - true - he had discouraging moments - - just like us - - but that doesnt mean there's an antithesis between the characters...
Kushner - the "I know my redeeemer liveth" statement is a very difficult and obscure hebrew transalation - - these are minor issues - - - this is the issue - - - is the concept of God speaking from the whirlwind the same as the God speaking in chapters 1,2 and 42? that is a compensating and bargaining God............ I dont see that He is...
Geisler - he's not a bargaining God but he is a compensating God -- In Ch. 42 - he gave him twice as much cattle, gold and silver - - - but the same amount of children - - not twice as many - - he never lost his children, he will get them in the resurrection - - which is a picture of resurrection - - and the resurrection is confirmed in chapter 19 .....
Kushner - I think the key to understanding God's role in tragedy is that the imperfection of the world makes it possible for us to love God - not becasue we're overwhlemd by his greatness- - - but becasue we are warmed by his goodness - - biblical story of Job almost makes the opposite point - - God overwhelms Job in the whirlwind - -I'm more comfortable with a God that invites us to love him than a God that intimidates us to apaologize to Him...
Geisler - You have a great God who is a good God - - - even satan cannnot do anything without God's permission - - - God is in sovereign control of the entire universe - - including evil - - - but He's simply not all powerful - but a God who is all loving that we willingly submit to Him - that is the message of the end of the Book of Job...
Kushner - what about Job's children - - the story ends in Ch.1 with them being killed....
Geisler - Job proclaims that our hope does not end in the grave - we have an all powerful God who will reverse death and bring a life beyond the grave that will rectify all the injustices of this world..... As I read your book, you held out no hope that there is no life beyond the grave - - - so your conclusions make sense....... as Paul says - if this life is all there is - we are the most to be pitied....
Kushner - Its not that I offer no hope - but I offer no confidence of another life - - - I can't bet all my chips on another world where injustice in this world will be straightened out - - I have to work harder to try and minimize the injustices in this world..... The prophets of the OT played down the world to come and do focus more in this world - - and I stand for that.....
Geisler - You've heard - - if God is all powerful - He could destroy evil - if He was all good - he would destory evil - and since evil exists, that God must not exist - - I think you can say - - If God is all pwerful, He can destroy evil and if He is all good - He will destroy evil - - and the fact that its not yet done - proves that He will do it !!! If there is an all powerful and all good God - He can and will do it - - and that's the hope and assurance that it will be done.....
Kushner - this is the 92nd psalm - - wickedness may have an apparent headstart, but in the long run, God's justice will overtake evil -- but John Maynard Keynes said - "in the long run, we'll all be dead"
Geisler - don't take that person's word over the authoratative Words of Scripture - - in th elong run we'll all be alive - - - Jesus said in John 11:25 - 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies."............If I knew that in the long run wed be dead - - I'd have to know everything - - and if I knew everything, I'd be God - - -
Kushner - I'm skeptical on the resurrection
Geisler - read Rabbi Dinkus Lapite's book who beleives the resurrection....or read Brian Morrison's book - Who Moved the Stone? -- he was a skeptic who set out to write a book to disprove the resurrection and the evidence was so overwhleming in support of the resurrection, he converted to Christianity......or Simon Greenleaf - - of Harvard Law School - who wrote the book on legal evidence - - whose students asked him to apply legal evidence to prove the authenticity of the New Testament documents - - he was converted to Christianity - the evidence is there.....
Kushner - you're preaching to the choir - -
Geisler - your missing the point - the people I just mentioned were unpersuaded - they were persuaded by the evidence.......
Kushner - I'm not persuaded
Geisler - there is objective evidence there for those who want to look into it.....its not a blind leap of faith - -
Kushner - It's not going to convert the uncoverted...
Geisler - there's a difference between proof and persuasion...... All I'm saying there's plenty of evidence - thye have to make a choice whether they want ot believe in it....
Comments on Debate between Dr. Geisler vs Rabbi Kushner - Part 5
Points
Program 5 is a Q&A Session from the audience: (only 1 question was asked...it took the entire time to debate the 1 question)
1st question for Rabbi Kushner - Do you believe you are innocent before God from having any bad thing happen to you?
Answer: Yes. People are subjected to fates they don't deserve. I'm not concerned with their freedom, or innocence - I'm concerned about proportionality and justice - - a child born handicapped or retarded is innocent - - a husband who is a good husband who is struck down by a drunk driver - is a good person in that he didn't deserve the things that happened to him.
Ankerberg: Jesus was innocent - and He suffered....
Geisler - Take Psalm 51 - - it says "I was born in sin" - Jeremiah 17 - man's heart is desperately wicked - Genesis 6:5 - all thoughts and hearts of men were wicked constantly - - - I think since the Fall, man is evil - - in a sense we actually deserve far worse than we get - - I can empathize with those who are affected by tragedy - but in light of a just God and rebellious human beings and in light of the OT verses on the depravity of man - - - man is basically evil and deserves more than he gets and we can be thankful to a gracious God that we don't get more tragedy..
Kushner - The nature of man would not be defined in the Psalms - - the Psalms represents humans speaking to God not the other way around - - it really talks about the weakness of man, not his depravity - - - any pastor will see that there are good people not deserving what they are getting... Walk the corridor of a hospital - - there is undeserved suffering there - - its morally unacceptable to answer the terminally ill cancer patient - your mother conceived you in sin ---- that's why..
Geisler - I quoted from the Psalms, the Torah, the Prophets, throughout the OT, and add the Book of Ecclesiastes - "there is not a just man on the earth and sins not" - - - sin and death and judgment came into humanity from sin - - but Jesus saved us from what we deserved - - man is sinful and deserves the judgment of God - - I'd call man evil......
Kushner - I don't find it in Scripture
Geisler - It's all over Scripture - -
Kushner - 4 lines out of 22 books - that is a theological doctrine?
Geisler - give me 1 line that says man is intrinsically good and not fallen....
Kushner - sin is an event but not a condition - - -man sins but doesn't become a sinner..... We all do wrong things... The Hebrew Scripture is different than Christianity - - the Hebrew Scriptures shows one can pull themselves up from their own bootstraps....
Geisler - I didn't quote Christian Scripture...Give me one verse from Jewish scripture where man is intrinsically good, and he is not Fallen
Kushner - Genesis 1
Geisler - that's b4 the Fall
Kushner - but its still the nature of man - - I don't see Genesis 3 as a fall - - the Psalms are people who are genuinely good
Geisler - the psalmist cry out against those who hate me - my enemies - - needing deliverance - if man is intrinsically good - -why do they do this?....
Kushner - - because they are the good ones...if man is supposed to have this suffering happen to them - why do they ask for deliverance?
Geisler - the question isn't whether they deserve it - the question is are they intrinsically evil as is reflected in the psalms - I see the psalmist stating their own sins - - take Psalm 19 - - David prays that he would be cleansed of his own sins - -
Kushner - you are misinterpreting Hebrew Scripture - - man is pictured as imperfect - - not as evil
Geisler - I'd love to be corrected - - if you could show me a verse that says that man is intrinsically good after Genesis 3
Kushner - Scripture tells a story - - a struggle of a people- - -who have a higher standard of morals/judgment - - the Hebrew Scriptures do not make a major pronouncement of man being sinful
Geisler - does it make a pronouncement of man being intrinsically good?
Kushner - no becasue its not a theological book - its a book about life.....
Geisler - does it tell us truth about life as God give it?.... can u give me a series of verse of truths that man is not in rebellion against God
Kushner - No - there are 22 books of a people who are weak and rebellious and sometime faithful...
Geisler - As a result of Adam's sin - - a rebellious people - with a continual life-style of sin in constant rebellion against God that needs atonement
Geisler - Leviticus says this is for the sins of people - - the atonement is for their continual sins
Kushner - that they're not perfect - - but good people - if they weren't good people why do they seek atonement...
Geisler - the fact that I'm willing to confess is is one thing - - the fact that I continually sin is different.. The OT is full of the people putting something above God
Kushner - a verse in the Book of Judges says the people were peaceful for 40 yrs - - and then the people backslid - - its good copy to focus on the negative- - just like our newspapers - - they focus on plane crashes in the paper - - - but plane crashes don't happen all the time....
Geisler - the OT tells the good and bad about the people - - it still presents man in continual rebellion against God - -
Kushner - Human beings are not bad because they aren't perfect - - that's 3000 yrs of Hebrew Scripture - - when people are hurt in life, my experience is that they suffer out of proportion to their sin.....
Geisler - the OT presents a picture of man in rebellion with God
Kushner - I see that - - but man is not hopelessly sinful
Geisler - but he is - - he cant do anything about it - - God has to provide a sacrifice for it
Kushner - that's Christianity
Geisler - no - God provided a day of Atonement, God provided the sacrificial system for the continual sin - - regardless of whether Christ fulfilled it.....Dont you see that in the OT?
Kushner - the people brought the lambs
Geisler - but were they not provided for sin?
Kushner - sometimes
Geisler - the lamb was provided for joy? It was not the lamb that was provided for joy...
Kushner - in Numbers - they were sacrificed for joy......
Geisler - and the lamb at Passover ? there were continual offerings for continual sin - - - so how can u say man is not a continual sinner?
Kushner - he's just less than perfect....
Geisler - when we fall below God's standard - - then I have sinned...
Geisler - doesn't everyone who ever lived fall below the 10 commandments at one time in their life?
Kushner - tens of millions of people have kept the 10 commandments.....
Geisler - I'd like to meet just one....
Geisler - Psalm 14 - all have sinned - -Isaiah 53 - we've all gone astray.....To say its not true that man didn't continually sin in the OT is not true......the basic thesis of Kushner's book - - is that bad things happen to good people - - I don't believe people are intrinsically good - and the OT and NT supports this.......
Comments on Debate between Dr. Geisler vs Rabbi Kushner - Part 6
Points
Question - to Kushner - You've said the enemy of God is man's unresponsiveness - what response does God require?
Kushner - to use their faith to keep on living -- for those who have died - we need to turn their death into an impulse for affirming life.....
Geisler - an all powerful God gives us the strength to respond that way - I don't have the motivation or strength to do it on my own..
Kushner - an awfully powerful God - but not all powerful.....
Kushner - I don't have a verse to support that God is not all powerful - but every page of the Hebrew Scripture shouts out for God's justice...Meaning, if he was all powerful, he would rid the world of injustice......
Geisler - the entire text shouts out for God's all powerfulness...
Kushner - when a child dies - - I can't say, "isn't it wonderful that the child graduated to be with God....."
Geisler - what about Psalm 16 - - - God reveals that in his presence is joy - - -in the OT precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints -- there is joy beyond the grave - - we should encourage ourselves in the passing
Geisler - we must distinguish how they died and where they are going.........I'm delighted with where they went.....
Kushner - I'm uncomfortable with when they die....couldn't they have received their promotion 30 yrs later?
Geisler - I am too - - my discomfort is not a proof that their death was unjustifiable - - we must know God plans the beginning from the end, who has our best interest at heart and the power to bring it about.
Kushner - a theological promise of an after life is not enough to counterbalance the pain of a tragic death in this world
Geisler - in a previous discussion, you said if there was an afterlife and were rewards for good and punishment for evil - that would indeed solve the problem for you
Ankerberg - no one has proof that this will happen?
Geisler - the history of the Jewish people in the OT and incarnation of Christ in the NT.....God supernaturally intervenes, prophets hundreds of yrs made prophecy - Jesus proved He was the son of God - - his resurrection was witnessed by over 500 people - - there's the evidence...
Ankerberg - Is there evidence that Moses lived?
Kushner - No.. Whether Moses wrote it or someone else it doesn't matter - its truth...
Geisler - We have more evidence that Moses lived than almost any character of the entire historical world - - He's the central figure in Jewish history - there's more written evidence that Jesus lived and historical witness than any event in recorded history during that time period...
Kushner - I don't know that Jesus existed.... I personally think He did...
Geisler - Is the NT a reliable record of his life?
Kushner - The NT is a partisan document - - - they were pushing a cause - - they defamed the Pharisees - its unreliable from that viewpoint - its a hatchet job - its a political document......The fact that the NT says that he fulfilled prophecy doesn't prove he did.
Geisler - So, its not a reliable document..
Kushner - it is not reliable in the area on the Pharisees - I know that much.....
Geisler - Is it reasonable to assume its unreliable in other areas too?
Kushner - yes
Geisler - then we cannot trust anything from the ancient world......because there is more documentary evidence, closer to the original, with more eyewitnesses that verified those documents than any event in the ancient world.....the gap between the original record and first book is less than 100 yrs - - its a 1,000 yrs for other docs- - the number of copies is a dozen for the others and 5,000 for the NT - - over 500 directly witnessed the resurrection - - - if you throw out the NT as unreliable - - you've now thrown out the entire library of ancient history as unreliable...
Geisler - the NT was written by the eyewitnesses........
Kushner - How can someone by an eyewitness to a non-event that never took place like the resurrection
Geisler - Prove it by producing the body - but no one could do that...... no one could go to the tomb and see the body...The authorities could have produced the body.
Kushner - all the people who were eyewitnesses to the resurrection are believers....is that a reliable witness?
Geisler - was Thomas a believer? was James? Some of these were skeptics.....
Kushner - In terms of prophecies, in Isiah, when the redeemer comes we'll have a world of peace and non-violence...Jews are unpersuaded because the world the redeemer was to usher in hasn't happened....
Geisler - OT Scripture states that they will look down on whom they have pierced (Zech 12) - + your prophecy you just mentioned in Isiah - the only way to do both of these prophecies is for the person to suffer, and die and then be resurrected - - He's fulfilled the first part (the suffering and dying), so we have every reason to fulfill the second part...
Kushner - We're waiting for the second part - -
Geisler - the hope is guaranteed by the fact that he fulfilled those prophecies related to his death - - all of them... We wait with evidence for the rest of them by the God who created the world and who has the power to bring the second part about..
