Comments on Debate between Dr. Geisler vs Rabbi Kushner - Part 4

John Ankerberg Show

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Points

Ankerberg - Let's look at the Book of Job

Kushner - there are 3 thesis in the Book- -

1. God is all powerful

2. God is good

3. Job is a good man

When Job is prospering, you can support all 3 statements......When Job is sick - - you can only affirm any 2 of these 3 by denying one of the 3.....The 3 friends conclude that Job may have done something wrong to deserve what is happening...That Job committed some sin and God is opening Job's eyes to it .. because they had been taught that God is all powerful (#1) and all loving (#2) ..... Job chooses to believe #1 and #3 and deny that God is good....because God is so great He doesn't need to be limited by consideration of fairness.....Kushner argues that #2 and #3 are true and he chooses not to believe in #1...... Kushner beleives #2 has to be true because God is the fountain of morality as made clear in the whole network of biblical values...but the bible doesn't conclude God is all powerful..... So, Kushner concludes that the tragedies that happen to innocent people are not God's will - - what kind of God would want these kind of things to happen??

Ankerberg - but Job doesn't agree with that....

Kushner - Yes - Job doesn't agree with what I'm saying - - but the author of Job may be saying what I'm saying - - - God's speech from the whirlwind is the "author's answer" - - it seems to say, "I am so powerful, you have no basis for questioning me?" - - if it says this then why does Job put his hand before his mouth and apologize - - it doesn't make sense - - that's what Job was saying for 36 chapters - -that God is all powerful - - so why would Job be shocked with his hand before his mouth to conclude that the whirlwind was saying that God is all powerful?

Ankerberg - - that doesnt jive with other verses - - like Job 42:1-2 where Job is commenting on God's all powerfulness - - Job 42:1-2 - - Then Job replied to the LORD : 2 "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. Sounds like "all powerful to me".......

Geisler - I'd outline the Book of Job this way - - the first few chapters are behind the scene, the middle chapters are "on the scene" and the last few chapters are "beyond the scene".....You will never understand what's going on in Job "on the scene" unless you understand what's going on in Job "behind the scene" and then whats going to happen "beyond the scene"...........the behind the scene is a contest between God and satan -- we cannot understand evil unless we understand the origin of evil - - (Ezekial 28, Isiaih 14) - a created angel that rebels agsinst God, hates God, hates His people and wants to do evil.....The contest behind the scene prompted God to permit Job to suffer -because of satan's challenge - - - satan inflicts his evil and God permits - - -in order to allow Job to say in Job 13:15a - Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him; - - and chapter 23:10 - - But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold. and chapter 19:25 - 25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. At the end of the book, God rewards Job with twice of what he had before.....God permits evil in order to bring about a greater good - - but only if God is prompted by the evil one - - who inflicts the evil on Job - - the suffering becomes significant in light of the ultimate purpose of a sovereing God who can do anything - - and does it for good - for Job and His own glory....

Kushner - I think chapter 1-2, 42 are an ancient fable - - chapter 3-41 are a much later and sophisticated poem dialogue - - If the whole book is one book - - I have problems with a God who gets talked into a wager, even worse lets children die and then replaces them with more children?? - - I'm unsatisfied with the chapter 42 ending and so is the author of the middle chapters.....

Geisler - there is no manuscript evidence for it being 2 books - - - our oldest manuscripts supports it as 1 text - - secondly, there's good literary evidence internally that it is 1 book - - sons of God in chapter 1 and 2 and also chapter 37 - - and its alos in Genesis chapter 6 - - it shows literary consistency/continuity - - the name of God most used in the Book of Job is Almighty - - - it's used 48 times in the Old Testament and 31 of these are in the Book of Job - - which shows and proves that God is all powerful..and sovereign...

Kushner - God is not referred to as Almighty and is referred to as Shaddai - - in Hebrew - - and there's no proof that Shaddai measn Almighty except that the King James translates it that way...Chapter 1,2 and 42 call God "Elohim" and the rest of the chapters use "Adonai" - - you dont see it any different.....its 2 different books....

Geisler - The OT dictionary refers to Shaddai as Almighty...... Brown Driver and Briggs supports it....

Kushner - Shadai is a praise name of God - it doesn't necessarily mean Almighty...

Geisler - what about the sons of God, the ancient references, the pre-Mosiac patriarchial period, the landmarks - follows thru the whole Book of Job............

Kushner - I'm not saying the 2 books are independent of each other - -the "poet" of the middle chapters could be writing as if its the same period...... - - -

Geisler - Ezekial refers to Job as a historical figure - - he's not a legend......

Kushner - after chapter 2- - Job stops being patient - - its a different book - - there's disjuncture

Geilser - Consider what Job says in chapter 19 and 23 - - true - he had discouraging moments - - just like us - - but that doesnt mean there's an antithesis between the characters...

Kushner - the "I know my redeeemer liveth" statement is a very difficult and obscure hebrew transalation - - these are minor issues - - - this is the issue - - - is the concept of God speaking from the whirlwind the same as the God speaking in chapters 1,2 and 42? that is a compensating and bargaining God............ I dont see that He is...

Geisler - he's not a bargaining God but he is a compensating God -- In Ch. 42 - he gave him twice as much cattle, gold and silver - - - but the same amount of children - - not twice as many - - he never lost his children, he will get them in the resurrection - - which is a picture of resurrection - - and the resurrection is confirmed in chapter 19 .....

Kushner - I think the key to understanding God's role in tragedy is that the imperfection of the world makes it possible for us to love God - not becasue we're overwhlemd by his greatness- - - but becasue we are warmed by his goodness - - biblical story of Job almost makes the opposite point - - God overwhelms Job in the whirlwind - -I'm more comfortable with a God that invites us to love him than a God that intimidates us to apaologize to Him...

Geisler - You have a great God who is a good God - - - even satan cannnot do anything without God's permission - - - God is in sovereign control of the entire universe - - including evil - - - but He's simply not all powerful - but a God who is all loving that we willingly submit to Him - that is the message of the end of the Book of Job...

Kushner - what about Job's children - - the story ends in Ch.1 with them being killed....

Geisler - Job proclaims that our hope does not end in the grave - we have an all powerful God who will reverse death and bring a life beyond the grave that will rectify all the injustices of this world..... As I read your book, you held out no hope that there is no life beyond the grave - - - so your conclusions make sense....... as Paul says - if this life is all there is - we are the most to be pitied....

Kushner - Its not that I offer no hope - but I offer no confidence of another life - - - I can't bet all my chips on another world where injustice in this world will be straightened out - - I have to work harder to try and minimize the injustices in this world..... The prophets of the OT played down the world to come and do focus more in this world - - and I stand for that.....

Geisler - You've heard - - if God is all powerful - He could destroy evil - if He was all good - he would destory evil - and since evil exists, that God must not exist - - I think you can say - - If God is all pwerful, He can destroy evil and if He is all good - He will destroy evil - - and the fact that its not yet done - proves that He will do it !!! If there is an all powerful and all good God - He can and will do it - - and that's the hope and assurance that it will be done.....

Kushner - this is the 92nd psalm - - wickedness may have an apparent headstart, but in the long run, God's justice will overtake evil -- but John Maynard Keynes said - "in the long run, we'll all be dead"

Geisler - don't take that person's word over the authoratative Words of Scripture - - in th elong run we'll all be alive - - - Jesus said in John 11:25 - 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies."............If I knew that in the long run wed be dead - - I'd have to know everything - - and if I knew everything, I'd be God - - -

Kushner - I'm skeptical on the resurrection

Geisler - read Rabbi Dinkus Lapite's book who beleives the resurrection....or read Brian Morrison's book - Who Moved the Stone? -- he was a skeptic who set out to write a book to disprove the resurrection and the evidence was so overwhleming in support of the resurrection, he converted to Christianity......or Simon Greenleaf - - of Harvard Law School - who wrote the book on legal evidence - - whose students asked him to apply legal evidence to prove the authenticity of the New Testament documents - - he was converted to Christianity - the evidence is there.....

Kushner - you're preaching to the choir - -

Geisler - your missing the point - the people I just mentioned were unpersuaded - they were persuaded by the evidence.......

Kushner - I'm not persuaded

Geisler - there is objective evidence there for those who want to look into it.....its not a blind leap of faith - -

Kushner - It's not going to convert the uncoverted...

Geisler - there's a difference between proof and persuasion...... All I'm saying there's plenty of evidence - thye have to make a choice whether they want ot believe in it....

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